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Hi community

So Steam is planing on new linuxOS and i just want to know what you think about that. And is this ubuntu based or have they told that yet or is it there own ?

It is based off of Debian, though they would be taking a lot out or changing stuff and making it pretty much their own. So far it only means good new for PC gaming, Linux in particular since every game native to SteamOS will be native to Steam for Linux, which is the Steam version SteamOS will be running of course.

I think its dope. Im so glad Steam entered the linux market finally, as now its making Nvidia, Wayland, X, and everyone else get off of their ass and get crackin' on new features. Its a very exciting time for us *NIX users!! :D

I am also very happy about this, because I most of all hope this means more game devs will start making Linux versions for their games. I am beginning to have hope now regarding The Witcher 3.

O_o i didn't even know of wayland and mir. And now the time has finally come for Linux to shine :D

Did Valve make the SteamOS public so we could try it out?

I think its a GREAT move and if I didn't have a Super Computer it would be a great alternative with the Steambox.
Not to mention I don't have to re-purchase games that have been converted to Linux.
Now they run in Windows and Linux.

Anyways, the more attention Linux gets in the gaming world the better!

DJ - "Dope" means "good" right?

Yes. hahaha. "Dope" means good. Im from California. lol. Sorry about that.

Well, Im not going to comment on Mir at this point, as its a very controversial subject. Suffice to say, Wayland is going to replace X in the VERY near future, and X will run only when needed as a Wayland client. Trust me, this is a VERY good move, and a long time in the making. Its going to be great.

Agreed.
I did some reading and had no idea how old "X" really was and all they have done is patched it for years. I know re-writing something that already works is not the best idea, but sometimes it really helps eliminate recurring bugs.

Yeah. I have been reading the hell out of source code and docs, and I would consider myself VERY knowledgeable about the graphics stack and X now. Not a dev, but yeah.

Basically, all X does is get in the way now. X has to do way too much. Back in the day, it did drawing, input selection, etc etc etc.. Now, if you take a look at /var/log/Xorg.0.log, you will see a bunch of EXTENSIONS being loaded. These extensions do the work that X used to do. X was not built with an API that would allow changes as dramatic as this, so these extensions granted framebuffer alloc. to things requesting OpenGL, input (now handled by evdev and udev), rendering (Xrender), screen control (Xrandr, Xineram, etc.), blah blah blah. These extensions now handle the brunt of the load, and now X is just getting in the way.

Wayland is basically going to replace X, as now everything graphics related is now moving to kernel-space, such as ModeSetting (KMS, or kernel mode setting), DRI, DRM, DMA, and pretty much anything that has to do with hardware control, allocation of memory, framebuffers, and all of that, so X is not needed, but we still need something to display with. Wayland comes in and can communicate native with the kernel, and still have the security.

Now, what happens to X? It gets pushed up to upper layers. For instance:

Right now, when you start X by itself, you get a blank screen. Then, X needs a window manager. This is all taken care of in say, KDE, as it has KDM (display manager), KDM (window manager), and of course the whole rest of the desktop environment. When you open a game, it makes a call to X, requesting access and a framebuffer to draw on to. This gets processed and bounced around a whole lot before finally, a window opens, allowing your game to run. This window is (for games) an openGL window, sitting on top of X, which is why you can drag it around in windowed mode.

This is ok, but not anymore, considering the needs of modern computers. Composite isnt just for pretty effects; it gives an agnostic layer to draw things on to. Sounds great? It is; on paper. X does this well now because of the extensions that have been hacked into X to do so.

Wayland simplifies this by replacing X, running Weston (a compositing window manager, like KDM), and when a program wants to to access a program, it takes about half the steps to request, allocate, and display on the screen, via a layer above the actual desktop, in the window manager. The good part about this, is that, because Wayland will take advantage of render nodes and all of the other cool stuff that is being done with DRM, GEM, and the rest of the graphics stack, and will always use this layer.

XWayland is X for Wayland. It does the same thing; a program needs X, it makes a call to wayland, and wayland spawns a rootless X server, and lets the program run in that window. Yes. X running in a window (or full screen, but its still just a window on top of wayland/weston), just like OpenGL apps request resources to X. Wayland just does it more efficiently.

One thing I found interesting, is basically, when you click on something on your screen, you arent REALLY clicking on that image. Its a pixmap that is displayed to you, and when you click, you are seeing a layer, but your clicks go through that layer to the manager underneath, that was tracking your mouse movements. 

Edité par RoninDusette

Very nice read DJ.
Starting to appear a bit confusing with rootless X server running a program in its layer, then running virtual desktop from Wine and then the game.
Lots of layers going on... but I like the crashing capabilities you mentioned.
I'm tired of going to the Shell just to kill a program because it crashed my whole desktop.

Those layers wont matter. X running NOT as root, means that it leaves all of the KMS and graphics stuff up to the kernel, and just basically has a window to display X-related things.

It is VERY much like a virtual desktop in Wine, if not the same concept. It gives itself a native environment, drawn into a window. X will still use everything its used to, so its not going anywhere right now, and will assure backwards compat. with older software that isnt or wont be ported to Wayland. If you run Wine apps in Wayland via XWayland, you will not notice a difference: Full screen games will be full screen, and windowed games will appear in a window. If it crashes, that window dies, and thats all. Move on with life. lol

Think about it this way:

Linux is pretty much fully controlled via command line and whatnot. Your software, obviously with some workarounds here and there, will work just fine, software will compile, etc etc etc..

The GRAPHICS layer ABOVE thise (X and Wayland) are where the changes are happening. Your wine app should still start. Its just now, Wayland will intercept the request, see that it wants X, and then allocate a framebuffer (via render nodes, controlled by DRM, GEM, and a few other acronyms) and draw it to an off-screen buffer, then display where it is asked to. Now, since the linux graphics stack will pool all graphics and FB resources together at a kernel level, there is no more card0, card1, etc etc etc.. (In terms of controlling resources. There is will still be an abstraction of this, but instead of card0 and all of that, it will be probably in /dev/dri/card0 or /dev/dri/dri0 or something like that).. Its all a giant pool of resource, and clients (programs that need to show you graphics in this case) just say "I want to draw this, at this resolution, this depth, on this screen, and Ill let you know if I want to do more", and the kernel allocates its resources according to the request via DRM, DRI, and GEM, then KMS sets the mode of the hardware, if needed, for full screen apps. Or something to that effect. Documentation for things THIS current (the last year) is not very solid yet. lol

Edité par RoninDusette

I'm tired of going to the Shell just to kill a program because it crashed my whole desktop.

Yeah. Thats always been a pain in the arse. Though, I gotta say, I love doing stuff via keyboard and command line. Lol. Makes me feel like a real nerd. I cant live my whole computer life via one finger (aka the mouse pointer) :)

Also, Petch, Tinou, MulX, or anyone else that is more experienced programmer, feel free to correct me if I am incorrect in anything. Ive been studying VERY hard learning OOP, as well as studying lower-level linux components like KMS, kernel modules, DRM, etc.,  and am about to start learning C, because I want to start doing Linux development in general, as well as contribute code to Wine and POL (yes. still learning Python). I can write pretty simple programs, and can get a pretty dope website designed, but yeah. Still learning. :D

Edité par RoninDusette

Good example:

[url]http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTQ5MjU[/url]

This was JUST posted. Like, right now. I refreshed the page, and there it was. lol. This is how fast the graphics stack is moving, now that Steam and other gaming dev are stepping up to the plate. I really think that the 2 BIGGEST things to get devs to replace X, and upgrade the graphics stack are: Ubuntu and Steam. Steam is easily the biggest distributor of digital media (games) on the planet. No one sells more games than Steam on the internet like they do. Ubuntu is VERY user friendly, compatible with damn near everything, and is most peoples first linux distro nowadays. With more users, more demand for up to date features. 

Edité par RoninDusette

Its great to see these big companies focusing more on Linux development. I knew it would be games that would push all of this forward.
Nothing else really gets as much attention and raises the bar like games.

It means they are seeing revenue possibilities too!

Its great to see these big companies focusing more on Linux development. I knew it would be games that would push all of this forward.
Nothing else really gets as much attention and raises the bar like games.

It means they are seeing revenue possibilities too!

I just ordered parts for my Dads computer. Not a gamer, but $624 including Windows 8.1
I could have saved him $100 by using Linux.

That is my line to pursuade people to Linux.
"Save $100 on your next computer"
or
"Scared of Windows 8, try Linux for free"
or
"Windows won't run your old games? Linux will"

The only reason I started messing with computers is because of games.
I'm in full-time IT and I owe it all to games.

haha. same here. I broke and fixed my first computer at ~8 or 9 years old, learned BASIC at 10, HTML at 12, and played video games since then, and all of the time in-between. Started using Linux in 2007 at a job working on Linux servers, then someone mentioned Kubuntu, I tried it, loved it but kde was buggy, switched to regular Ubuntu, and never looked back.

Im actually a smarter, WAY more advanced technician because of it, not to mention that I have the sexiest computer around these parts, and RARELY have to use Windows anymore. Linux and open-source, as it odd as it sounds, literally changed my life in a MAJOR way. The way I think, software that I use, my whole computing experience and moral status changed in a way I never imagined. Man, that seems so weird to see what I just typed, but I stand by it.

Linux and open-source, for me and probably others, has made my life better all around.

Another good example of performance after migrating to Wayland/Xwayland solutions:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=fedora20_wayland_preview&num=2

This is couple of weeks old, and this stuff is still in testing, but this is how far we have come, and how close we are getting.

Im actually a smarter, WAY more advanced technician because of it, not to mention that I have the sexiest computer around these parts, and RARELY have to use Windows anymore. Linux and open-source, as it odd as it sounds, literally changed my life in a MAJOR way. The way I think, software that I use, my whole computing experience and moral status changed in a way I never imagined. Man, that seems so weird to see what I just typed, but I stand by it.

Linux and open-source, for me and probably others, has made my life better all around.